20Jan Canon c100 vs 6d and some c100 noise reduction
I’m stuck without a vehicle today (my trucks getting new tires) and the weathers been pretty rotten with 60 mile an hour gusts, so i’ve spent the morning playing around with the Canon c100 inside. A number of you have offered up suggestions to make my c100 shooting experience more enjoyable. So this morning, I went through the Canon c100’s menus and made a number of changes based on your recommendations, after that I shot this little bit of test footage with the c100 and the Canon 6d.
This isn’t very scientific, I just grabbed the c100 and the 6d, set them to the same kelvin, dialed them up to ISO 3200 at f2.8 and shot this cup of tea. After a little bit I punched in to 200% so you can see the grain. Cinema lock was turned off on the c100 and the 6d was set to standard picture style.
Youtube adds a lot of compression, so here’s a 1080p screen grab to get a better look at the noise. While the c100 might retain more detail in the image, the noise looks worse to my eye when compared to the Canon 6d at 3200 iso. I don’t have any problems shooting with a 6d or 5d mark III at 3200 or even 6400 iso if needed, however the c100’s noise pattern starts to crawl above 3200 and gets really ugly at 6400 iso in the examples below.
With the setting changes made, you can see that the Canon c100 is starting to produce an image that’s a little closer to what I would expect out of my DSLR cameras, though it’s still noisier to my eye. In an effort to clean up the noise, I ran the c100 test footage through Neat Video’s noise reduction plugin, here’s a screen grab, and here’s the same screen grab without the filter applied.
It’s easy to see that the noise filter is doing it’s job, most if not all of the crawling noise is eliminated by Neat Video’s noise reduction plugin. But once you apply the filter, any resolution advantage the c100 has disappears and you’re left with an image that looks about the same as the Canon 6d’s pixel binning method of video capture.
Here’s another example of the noise level of the Canon c100. This was shot at ISO 6400 and you can see that the noise is pretty ugly on the unfiltered shot. Here’s full size screen grabs with the filter and without.
This shot is my own fault and I can’t blame the c100. This was pushed all the way up to 20,000 ISO and that’s asking a lot from the sensor. While the filter does a pretty decent job of covering up this poor settings choice, you can still see that the image is starting to fall apart around the eyes. This wasn’t a critical shot, just something I was playing around with while the actors worked on their lines. I don’t think I’d risk going above 12,800 unless I was shooting reality tv or a documentary. Anyway here are the screen grabs with the filter and without.
If you have to apply heavy noise reduction at high ISO what’s the advantage? Are we spending $5,500 for better ergonomics and more pro features? Is that enough to justify an upgrade for you? I know that not everyone needs to shoot at such high ISO’s and if you don’t there are a large number of cameras that will give you excellent full sensor resolution at ISO settings 800 and below for far less than the c100. The big selling point on the c100 for me was lens compatibility, audio controls, resolution, and low light performance.
Noise reduction requirements knock out resolution improvements and the images I’ve captured at high ISO, as you can see above, need some work. At double the price of a 5d mark III, is form factor and ergonomics enough of a benefit for you to upgrade? Seems like a hard sell to me.
January 21st, 2014 at 3:27 am
Sounds like we’ll be seeing a C100 on eBay soon…
Are you tempted to try the new auto focus upgrade?
January 21st, 2014 at 7:16 am
Haven’t decided if i’m selling off the c100 yet. Considering the upgrade, I have a feeling the announcements at NAB this year will either lead to a price fall off on the c100 or some more firmware upgrades to keep the camera relevant. A few people have tried talking me into a Sony fs100, but that feels like a step backwards in the form factor department. So far the c100’s seen just enough work to pay for itself which makes it a little easier to hold on to. I’ll keep experimenting, maybe there’s a secret combination of settings and post production that really makes it shine and I just need to find them.
January 21st, 2014 at 8:06 am
They dropped the price by $500, but I think that is because they are releasing an update where your c100 can be sent in for center dual pixel auto focus similar to the Canon 70d. For me, this is a huge upgrade to the camera as I do commercial work and event stuff and this will make my job when filming events much easier. I am surprised that you are not in love with this camera yet. I sold my Sony fs100 for this and it is WAY better than the sony.
January 21st, 2014 at 8:22 am
Yea, the AF system right now isn’t great. It’ll usually get you close but it’s not as fast or as accurate as most dslrs. From all the recommendations from people who love this camera, I was expecting to really enjoy shooting with it. So far i’m lukewarm at best. The FS100 provides a pretty decent image up to around +12db (about 1600 iso maybe, never did get those conversions memorized), but form factor is bazzar.
January 21st, 2014 at 4:28 am
The c100 didn’t look like it was in focus there. Kind of hard to compare.
January 21st, 2014 at 5:12 am
Take a look at the full res screen grabs for a better look. I was looking more at the background grain. The current af on the c100 is also not as good as most DSLR cameras.
January 21st, 2014 at 11:15 pm
IMHO, adding an Atomos Ninja to the C100, and recording directly in ProRes 422 may reduce the grain and save your time for editing.
Dynamic range and grading is improved too.
January 22nd, 2014 at 7:20 am
I’ll do some grain checks with ProRes, I’ve been using DNxHD 145 for most things when recording with the ninja. The DNxHD puts all 4 audio files into a single container which makes it really handy when I’m recording from 4 audio sources and don’t want to mix down.
January 22nd, 2014 at 3:35 pm
I found the C100 was not in focus in your comparision which makes the comparision difficult. An other thing to note that is quite different with the C series of cameras from a DSLR is that everytime you adjust your ISO you should recalibrate your ABB (Auto Black Balance). The noise is greatly reduced if you recalibrate your ABB which seems like it was not done with yours in between ISO changes?
Adding a Ninja2 recorder actually adds a little bit of grain since the feed from the HDMI does not have any noise reduction applied to it. The real advantage to using the Ninja2 is the use of a different Codec (higher bitrate for broadcast use) and 4:2:2 color space.
January 22nd, 2014 at 3:42 pm
Check out the high screen grabs for better focus, sorry just a quick coffee table test of the noise at 3200 iso. I do an ABB once or twice a day when using the C100, you think it should be done with every single ISO change? The test calibration takes 15 or 20 seconds, could be kind of a hassle if you have to change iso a lot. When I use the Ninja I usually shot at DNxHD 145, some say ProRes will provide better results, any opinions? I’m open to ideas on the c100 and willing to try any settings recommendations.
January 23rd, 2014 at 12:23 am
To a certain degree yes. If you change from 850 to 1000 it wouldn’t make much of a difference but if you did your ABB at 850 and then you bump it up to 3200, that’s a pretty big difference so yes it should be redone for that. It is a bit annoying but when you are on set the ISO changes wouldn’t be that drastic normally. Try also having a bit of a higher exposure and then bring it back down a bit in post instead. Will give you better results. The AVCHD codec has a harder time in the darks then the DSLR’s. You can also control the amount of noise reduction the camera is adding to the image. It looks to me like the noise reduction is turned down lower then that of the 6D (DSLR’s tend to add more noise reduction).
That’s what I’ve found with mine anyways.
January 23rd, 2014 at 6:39 am
Thanks for the info James, i’ll give it a try.
January 24th, 2014 at 11:33 pm
And an other quick note. In your color profiles, you can turn on the in-camera noise reduction in the C100 which will give you a much better result. It usually has it off on the stock settings. The 6D has it on by default. Turn on the noise reduction of the C100 and compare again to have more “fair” comparison. 🙂
January 27th, 2014 at 9:15 pm
James, I’m editing the EOS Std. color profile and I’ve cranked the in camera noise reduction up to 5. Any other settings you think I should change for testing?
January 28th, 2014 at 8:32 pm
I personally stay away from that color profile. It tries to emulate the DSLR look which goes against the whole point of owning this camera. Wide DR is a much nicer color profile and requires minimal editing.
Try the Wide DR color curve with +5 noise reduction and also try it with sharpening to 0 or up to +5 and you will see a much better image. You will want to take a bit of green out from the midtones of the final image in post depending on your lighting. Something like -3 or 4 green
January 28th, 2014 at 8:56 pm
Thanks James! I’ll give it some more testing this weekend after I finish up the Sony RX10 review. If I find the right color profile may end up keeping the c100 after all.
January 30th, 2014 at 12:11 am
Here is a quick little video I shot with WideDR and a minor green color correction, no sharpening in post, no noise reduction in post either. Shot ISO 3200-4000 until the last shot which was ISO 850.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpMKq9tTyqk
January 30th, 2014 at 6:52 am
Link?
February 2nd, 2014 at 2:51 pm
http://youtu.be/OpMKq9tTyqk
February 2nd, 2014 at 9:43 pm
The first few shots look pretty noise in the blacks, though they are better than what I’ve been getting out of my c100.
February 2nd, 2014 at 10:15 pm
Those were my first shots with the camera the day after I got it. Pushing 4000iso with a very unevenly lit image. I also didn’t know as much about this camera as I do now. I get much better results now. But I also understand the limitations better. So shooting black skies is not something I do anymore haha. Or I over expose a bit and bring it down after in post.
January 23rd, 2014 at 6:59 pm
I moved from the 5D Mark II to the C100 about 9 months ago and I couldn’t be happier. The dynamic ranger is higher, I found the ISO performance to be much better and the level of detail in the footage is far superior. Also, I do mostly doc style work with some cinema tossed in so this is the perfect camera for me.
I’m really surprised by your unhappiness with the c100.
January 23rd, 2014 at 7:34 pm
I was also surprised by the c100, from all the recommendations I was expecting to fall in love. So far I use it when requested, but I haven’t been very happy with the level of quality I’ve been getting out of it at anything over 1600 ISO. I got a pretty good deal on the camera so i’m reluctant to get rid of it, but I still haven’t been very impressed. I plan to Give james’s recommendations a try as well as few other recommendations I received from the forums once I get a chance to sit down and do some more testing.
Right now I’m finishing up the Sony RX10 and redrock micro cage reviews in between a few shorts i’m working. Schedule has filled up pretty fast this year, hopefully I’ll have some more free time at the beginning of February to dig in deep.
February 13th, 2014 at 2:48 am
Would it be possible to get some side by side shots at 6400 and 12,800 ISO?
And how’s the dynamic range compare? Because the C100 is listed at 12 stops, while the 6d supposedly has about 9ish.